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  #21  
Old 12-27-2011, 02:19 AM
Leeuwer Leeuwer is offline
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Originally Posted by 0ni View Post
It's just a 5x5 routine but with 5/3/1 as the once a week stuff. I've been doing this for a while now and have no problem with the workload and I've been getting fantastic results with it so far.

I will try upping the speed deadlifts to 70% though. And yes, the 5/3/1 stuff is just to take the thought out of assistance and generally done for higher reps and lower weight. I like auto regulation and say for example the good mornings, I use a training max of about 80% then work up, increasing my training max by 1.25kg for every rep over 1 in week 3 of 5/3/1. I find this a great way of doing assistance work. When I start overreaching, I just turn the percentages down.

But I can easily hit heavy on the deadlifts after speed squats and a max single, followed by good mornings. I don't consider more work than say, squatting every day.

Juggernaut method is basically like 5/3/1 combined with block periodisation. I was using 5/3/1 like the rest but decided to give that a go and it worked very well. Looking at it now it does look like I just bunged a load of crap together lol but it just sort of "evolved" into that over a period of time.

I'll give dropping the squat volume on fridays anyway and will see if I can squeeze a few extra reps out on the deadlift instead. As I said though, I've not had problems missing reps before though
Here are some suggestions:

- you want to focus on the deadlift, so I assume you will not be preparing for a full meet. If so, just move the deadlift of Friday to the front and start out with it, and squat later. I do the same on Friday, actually. It helps.

- make an honest evaluation: are you lower back deficient or upper back deficient? Training economy, can't do both. I would venture to say that many lifters would benefit AT LEAST as much from doing more UPPER back work for their deadlift than they would from doing more LOWER back work.
If so, I would replace the good mornings with dumbbell rows or seated rows, something that works localised and doesn't increase lower back fatigue.

- cut down the deadlift volume on Monday and instead of making it a "speed day" per se, make it a "light deadlift day", in which you train for speed.
What I mean is this: just watch the bar speed. Some days you can move very fast with 80%, other days you can only do it with 60%.
Mike T. will concur. Just work up to a top set of 2-3 reps at max speed. But keep the volume down.

- do indeed drop the squat volume on Friday more. If your focus is on deadlifts, focus on deadlifts.

- one more thing, about training philosophy: you may FEEL like you can recover from all of this, and you probably can (it's not THAT much work, people have recovered from more). However, your progress is limited more, which may go unnoticed.

Hope you take some of these things to heart and are able to integrate them.
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2011, 02:49 AM
0ni 0ni is offline
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Originally Posted by Leeuwer View Post
Here are some suggestions:

- you want to focus on the deadlift, so I assume you will not be preparing for a full meet. If so, just move the deadlift of Friday to the front and start out with it, and squat later. I do the same on Friday, actually. It helps.

- make an honest evaluation: are you lower back deficient or upper back deficient? Training economy, can't do both. I would venture to say that many lifters would benefit AT LEAST as much from doing more UPPER back work for their deadlift than they would from doing more LOWER back work.
If so, I would replace the good mornings with dumbbell rows or seated rows, something that works localised and doesn't increase lower back fatigue.

- cut down the deadlift volume on Monday and instead of making it a "speed day" per se, make it a "light deadlift day", in which you train for speed.
What I mean is this: just watch the bar speed. Some days you can move very fast with 80%, other days you can only do it with 60%.
Mike T. will concur. Just work up to a top set of 2-3 reps at max speed. But keep the volume down.

- do indeed drop the squat volume on Friday more. If your focus is on deadlifts, focus on deadlifts.

- one more thing, about training philosophy: you may FEEL like you can recover from all of this, and you probably can (it's not THAT much work, people have recovered from more). However, your progress is limited more, which may go unnoticed.

Hope you take some of these things to heart and are able to integrate them.
Thank you, your suggestions are thought out and logical, I appreciate that. I will change from singles to doubles on Monday and focus on working up to max speed, instead of doing the fastest speed I can with a certain percentage.

How do I tell if I am upper or lower back deficient? I am already doing both chin-ups and rows for upper back so upper back weakness was the last thing on my mind lol
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2011, 03:31 AM
Leeuwer Leeuwer is offline
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Originally Posted by 0ni View Post
Thank you, your suggestions are thought out and logical, I appreciate that. I will change from singles to doubles on Monday and focus on working up to max speed, instead of doing the fastest speed I can with a certain percentage.

How do I tell if I am upper or lower back deficient? I am already doing both chin-ups and rows for upper back so upper back weakness was the last thing on my mind lol
You're welcome man. Sounds good.

How can you tell ... Well, first of all, do not go by numbers. One guy can one-arm dumbbell row 135lbs but lose upper back tension in his deadlift, simply because he never learned how to keep it there.

An "easy" way is to figure out where you fatigue the quickest and what causes you to miss a lift during your deadlift. If your lower back does not fatigue easily, it's probably in good enough shape to support your deadlift.
Weak points MAY move, but in general it doesn't happen as quickly as many lifters who follow Westside principle think. Not saying Westside is wrong(far from it), but many people think a weak point can change in a manner of weeks, while it's probably more along the lines of every half year or so.

Since you're doing all that squatting, I would be inclined to say you don't need any extra lower back work.

Think about it like this: the deadlift is a pull, and so is a row. A bentover barbell row mimics the movement of a deadlift more closely than a good morning because the grip element is introduced.

Some lifters swear by heavy shrugging to bring up their deadlift but that never did anything for me.

Now, you CAN do some good mornings, but keep the weight and volume low. Just like in 5/3/1 is suggested you do them, actually: focus on really sitting back and getting the most out of a light weight. (light = probably around 60-80kgs. Yep, that's light.)
Why? To save energy and recovery for your deadlift. You're doing good mornings to increase your deadlift, but your deadlift increases first and foremost by deadlifting.

I would do your Friday session like this:


Deadlift: up to a 3-rep max, followed by a back-off set (or Juggernaut method, why not)
Bench: up to 1RM, followed by "some" volume (2-3 sets)
Squat: work up to an easy beltless 5-rep set, then stop.
One-Arm Row: 3 sets of 12

Then Monday like this:

Squat: 5 x 5
Bench / Press 5x5
"Light deadlift" up to 3RM
Good morning: 2 x 10, light

And then I'd move your chins to Wednesday.

Last edited by Leeuwer; 12-27-2011 at 03:41 AM.
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2011, 03:49 AM
0ni 0ni is offline
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Thanks, I'll give that a try.
I don't really ever fail deadlifts, I am quite fast as I have always made speed work a priority so generally I find that if I can break it off the ground with my legs, I can lock it out. No idea what weak point that puts me as but I can try what you have suggested and if it fails miserably I can always switch back, but I may as well give it a try.

Just to clarify, I am keeping barbell rows on wednesday and doing chin-ups as well? I don't have a problem with this - just making sure
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2011, 04:12 AM
Leeuwer Leeuwer is offline
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Originally Posted by 0ni View Post
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
I don't really ever fail deadlifts, I am quite fast as I have always made speed work a priority so generally I find that if I can break it off the ground with my legs, I can lock it out. No idea what weak point that puts me as but I can try what you have suggested and if it fails miserably I can always switch back, but I may as well give it a try.

Just to clarify, I am keeping barbell rows on wednesday and doing chin-ups as well? I don't have a problem with this - just making sure
That's the way I'd do it. I figure you want to make those chinups a secondary priority (but still a priority), so you'd be more fresh on Wednesday than on Monday. Plus moving the GMs to Monday will insure that your lower back has recovered by Friday.

I have the same thing: I can lock out anything I can get to my knees, also due to my speed. I feel that lower back and leg strength is more important off the floor, once above the knee it's almost all upper back.

Last edited by Leeuwer; 12-27-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2011, 04:49 AM
0ni 0ni is offline
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Excellent, thanks loads. Glad I only have to jiggle a few things around. I get back into the gym on Jan 3rd and I'll get you all know how it went after about 16 weeks
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  #27  
Old 12-27-2011, 06:46 PM
jaymax jaymax is offline
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Hey Oni,
I was referring more to this "Squat Max single, min volume 3x2, max 50 reps, 2-10 reps a set" on the friday squats. With doing DE squats beforehand and then following up with deads it seems like major overkill - along with 2 other squat days. But who knows what another person can recover from...only the person themself and their log!

Leeuwer really seems to know his stuff so I'd take his advice. He also mentioned deadlifting first on one day...kinda brutal if you're doing volume on both lifts but in this case you're not. I personally like Deads followed by front squats when doing that...just find it easier to perform on front squats than back after heavy deads.

For abs I like those decline barbell crunches too. I personally do them in a 3D smith machine but you probably don't have access to one. I was using 135 or so. Also decline situps with a dumbell. Just be careful not to drop down too fast and hard when lowering so as not to wrench your back - I've done it once before.
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  #28  
Old 12-27-2011, 10:59 PM
0ni 0ni is offline
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Originally Posted by jaymax View Post
Hey Oni,
I was referring more to this "Squat Max single, min volume 3x2, max 50 reps, 2-10 reps a set" on the friday squats. With doing DE squats beforehand and then following up with deads it seems like major overkill - along with 2 other squat days. But who knows what another person can recover from...only the person themself and their log!

Leeuwer really seems to know his stuff so I'd take his advice. He also mentioned deadlifting first on one day...kinda brutal if you're doing volume on both lifts but in this case you're not. I personally like Deads followed by front squats when doing that...just find it easier to perform on front squats than back after heavy deads.

For abs I like those decline barbell crunches too. I personally do them in a 3D smith machine but you probably don't have access to one. I was using 135 or so. Also decline situps with a dumbell. Just be careful not to drop down too fast and hard when lowering so as not to wrench your back - I've done it once before.
Thanks, I was thinking of doing them in the rack and setting the bars so I only have to press it out a few inches. I was thinking I could do it with 1 dumbbell as well if I wanted some oblique work
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  #29  
Old 01-19-2012, 08:49 PM
Daluke Daluke is offline
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Originally Posted by Leeuwer View Post
The concept of speed should be emphasized, not necessarily only with 60% lifts. The bar should always be top speed, grinding should be kept for a true max.

With respect to bar speed, when is ones pull considered to be "grinding"? Today, my deadlift routine included 5x5's at a weight that would take me about 3-4 seconds per rep to complete (up to lockout, that is). The first and last pulls in the set seem to take the longest.

I don't know what my max is; haven't attempted that as of yet. Would a "grinder" be a rep where action of the bar becomes so slow that it's almost motionless? Also, why is faster, better?

Thanks!
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  #30  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:04 PM
61pwcc 61pwcc is offline
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Default Deadlift Rx

Always kinda amazed that people don't do Barbell Hack Squats and Jefferson Lifts(aka Straddle Lift). These lifts are as old as the Deadlift itself.
Yes, Good Mornings of all types help. Reverse Hypers are great. Speed pulls? absolutely do them. I don't believe ANY of these have as much to offer as another pull or two from the floor.
Hack Squats are a Deadlift with the bar on the floor BEHIND you. Check out a pic of the start position in the USAWA homepagehttp://www.usawa.com/hack-squats-for-olympic-lifting/ Arch your whole back/chest out, sit down reach for the bar( I use a clean grip(thumbs width out from smooth part of bar)). Start lift by driving feet through floor so hard your feet crack. Soon your butt is going to be in the way of the bar. You have to forcefully drive your hips forward to get them out of the way of the rising bar. I've been told I look like one of those Olympic Ski Jumpers in flight when I lockout which is good. You'll have to lean forward to get those hips through. This builds a great lockout. Don't let your back round!! If it does, lighten the weight 'til you can do it right. Build that leg drive off the floor and lockout.
Jefferson Lift can be done 2 ways which they just described on the USAWA homepage. Check it out:http://www.usawa.com/jefferson-lift-technique/
The lift is done with a leg on each side of the bar. I do the shoulders perpendicular technique so I'm facing the weight plates of one side. Grip the bar with one hand in front and one behind. Start with the bar against the calf. Which calf? The same side as the hand that is gripping to the back. Stand over the bar,arch your whole back/chest out sit down reaching to the bar making sure the rear hand is the same side as the calf touching side, putting more pressure on the foot closest to the bar. Drive your feet through the floor hard. You'll feel more pressure on that one leg closest to the bar. Drive up and over so the pressure is equal on both feet by the time you reach lockout. Don't round your back. Lighten the weight to get it right. This type of pull can help you balance out your left and right leg strength. Also as the weight gets heavy, the bar turns out to the side, same side as the front hand. If you twist the bar back in line, you'll get some good Oblique work.
Traditional or Sumo Deadlifts, Hack Squats or Jefferson Lifts @220lb w/o a belt and 40 years old I can pull in the mid 500's with a hook grip.

Last edited by 61pwcc; 01-22-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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