The Double Knee Bend in Olympic Weightlifting

[glennpendlay]

The Double Knee Bend in Olympic Weightlifting

http://www.pendlay.com/The-Double-Kn...ing_df_62.html

Here is a video that he provided to show what he is describing

[COACHMCCAULEY]

This, too, is a clear article but I disagree with the described form and the form in the video, as well.

It may seem nit-picking but I believe the dkb should be described from what the knees do and the hips do before what the torso does.

That is to say, I believe and teach that the knees are allowed to go forward bringing the hips down and the torso opens up slightly due to a conscious hip extension to keep the bar rising. I believe if the athlete thinks of causing the dkb by lifting his back, the knees will be shoved forward, just as I believe the accompaning vid shows, thus moving the athlete too far into the forefeet too early, causing the quads to be engaged too early and eventually this affects the 2nd pull by moving the bar trajectory forward.

CoachMc

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by COACHMCCAULEY

This, too, is a clear article but I disagree with the described form and the form in the video, as well.

It may seem nit-picking but I believe the dkb should be described from what the knees do and the hips do before what the torso does.

That is to say, I believe and teach that the knees are allowed to go forward bringing the hips down and the torso opens up slightly due to a conscious hip extension to keep the bar rising. I believe if the athlete thinks of causing the dkb by lifting his back, the knees will be shoved forward, just as I believe the accompaning vid shows, thus moving the athlete too far into the forefeet too early, causing the quads to be engaged too early and eventually this affects the 2nd pull by moving the bar trajectory forward.

CoachMc

Don,

It's too late and I'm to tired right now to hunt on youtube for a video, but when I looked at the vid that Sean provided, I immedietly though of the 196kg clean and jerk by Boevski... of course he was on tippy toes by the time the bar got a few inches above the knee, but he sure did make that record lift look easy.

And no, Sean is not on his toes... but, for some reason the movement just seemed the same, not sure why...

glenn

[Dave Rogerson]

I would be interested to know whether the coaches here feel that the double knee bend is something that should be taught to an athlete specifically, or if it is simply a natural pattern that occurs with correct technique.

[COACHMCCAULEY]

Originally Posted by glennpendlay

Don,

It's too late and I'm to tired right now to hunt on youtube for a video, but when I looked at the vid that Sean provided, I immedietly though of the 196kg clean and jerk by Boevski... of course he was on tippy toes by the time the bar got a few inches above the knee, but he sure did make that record lift look easy.

And no, Sean is not on his toes... but, for some reason the movement just seemed the same, not sure why...

glenn

Glenn,

Boevski's one of my favorites and he really shoved himself very far forward on his feet when he scooped. I always felt this was to purposely brace himself forward on the feet to increase the speed (like a stretch reflex action) in driving himself back off them during the 2nd pull extension. Note, though, it looks a lot more like he's releasing his knees forward than driving his back up.

Very unique and an interesting experiment but not necessarily something to emulate by a lot of people. Of course, it worked for him.

CoachMc

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by COACHMCCAULEY

Glenn,

Boevski's one of my favorites and he really shoved himself very far forward on his feet when he scooped. I always felt this was to purposely brace himself forward on the feet to increase the speed (like a stretch reflex action) in driving himself back off them during the 2nd pull extension. Note, though, it looks a lot more like he's releasing his knees forward than driving his back up.

Very unique and an interesting experiment but not necessarily something to emulate by a lot of people. Of course, it worked for him.

CoachMc

At least you got what I was talking about, which proves that I am not crazy. Oh wait...

[glennpendlay]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogerson

I would be interested to know whether the coaches here feel that the double knee bend is something that should be taught to an athlete specifically, or if it is simply a natural pattern that occurs with correct technique.

I am pretty solidly in the camp of NOT teaching it, and just allowing it to happen naturally. I NEVER teach it, and ALL the lifters I teach/coach do it, which tells me it's not absolutely neccessary to teach.

I do, however, know some damn good coaches that teach it. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer on this one.

[NickHorton]

I'm curious, from a purely pedagogical standpoint, how much one needs to "teach" the double knee bend.

Glenn, in your progressions (viz. your DVD and online videos) you almost gloss right over it. You're below the knee, then all the way up to an upright torso. And all you've told the lifter to do is use the hips to "hinge" their way back to the 2nd pull position.

I've been using your progression now to teach people, and I really like it. But, even before that, I've avoided outright teaching of the DKB, because most lifters just seem to do it, regardless ... so long as they are trying to hit the other important position points.

I like Sean's article, from a theoretical standpoint. But, from a teaching standpoint, what do you think?

[kderbyshire]

In my (limited) experience, consciously trying to do a DKB just messes up my timing and makes the transition into the second pull too slow. So I'd fall into the "don't teach it" camp. But I'm still new at this: if you ask me in six months, I might give a totally different answer.

Katherine

[Brian DeGennaro]

Nick,

IMO, I think one of the hardest things people have when it comes to coaching is to separate theoretical and scientific concepts from the coaching process. When coaching someone directly in a practice you just can't get into concepts. Afterwards you do that. Let me use myself as an example.

I train on my own and have trained on my own since the beginning, only receiving video coaching for a while, and then just doing on my own. The only coaching I have received hands on has been at a meet. So in short I am my primary coach and because of this I used to often times get caught up overanalyzing and feeding myself too many concepts of weightlifting when critiquing my technique.

However when I help other people lift I can get them to do things pretty accurately pretty quickly because I don't go over concepts, I just tell them to do this and bam the lift is better. After the set or at the end of the day I probably will inform them what and why was going on more scientifically but I tend to keep it out of the equation.

What happens to me is I used to get paralyzed because I would know and see everything wrong with my form and I didn't know what to tell myself because at all times I knew XYZ was wrong. The man I consider my "coach" has repeatedly told me to stop thinking too much about my lifts and just do what I do best, and every single time it has worked.

I don't know if that was a little bit of a tangent about me but in my own limited experience in lifting it's much easier to just cue someone than talk any science. Sometimes you're better off keeping them dumb.