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  #11  
Old 10-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Greg Everett Greg Everett is offline
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Nick -

I think those are all great points. Just underscores the need to take it lifter by lifter - you can have a plan, but that plan needs to be flexible to account for things like this.
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2011, 11:19 PM
Powmongo Powmongo is offline
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Default The disagreement is your second point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
Stephen -

I'm confused about what we're arguing over exactly. I'm not interested in arguing for the sake of argument, so let me try once more to clarify and then I'm going to leave you to disagree with me on your own if you so desire.



Agreed. I've never argued this or suggested otherwise. The squat was used to illustrate a point I apparently didn't make clear enough. A very precise power movement will have minimal bar drop and consequently minimal downward force. However, there is still downward force, even if the body and bar were perfectly static. Consequently, a lifter must resist that force in order to fix and maintain the support position, wherever that is. The shallower a squat position, the better the mechanical position for all joints involved, and therefore the easier to support the weight (assuming all positions in question are above the actual bottom squat position in which the body parts are stacked and supporting each other directly).



This is agreeing with what I said previously, so again, I'm very confused. The higher the bottom position of a squat, whether you start from the top or the bottom, whether you're moving a weight or only supporting it in place, the "stronger" you are. We're only talking about above parallel and higher here - fulls squats are immaterial.

If you were forced to hold a partial squat position for 5 minutes straight, would you choose to do it just above parallel, or in a quarter squat position? Why?




The partial FS in that video is significantly above parallel, and as a matter of fact, she has about a 90 degree knee angle, the very angle I refer to in the article as sometimes being appropriate as a measure for a power snatch bottom position (photo attached).

Finally, in your previous post, you told me that my claim that "it's a lot more difficult to stop downward movement just above parallel than with a 90 degree knee angle, for example." was an opinion. It's not an opinion. It's a fact of simple mechanics: the more open the knee and hip, the shorter the moment arm on the joints, and the less mechanical disadvantage the associated muscles are working against. The rest of the article is my opinion, e.g. when power snatches can be beneficial and when they might be problematic.

When I read that article, I see it being quite an endorsement of the power snatch with a few cautions, not at all a condemnation of it and/or its proponents, so I'm confused about your reaction to it, especially considering lines like:

"All of these potential problems can be avoided, but caution needs to be taken to do so. "

"Ultimately, decisions about exercise selection need to be made based on the needs and abilities of each athlete and the circumstances in which that athlete is training. What works for one lifter can be counterproductive for another. Avoid dismissing any exercise entirely, and let the needs of each situation dictate the approach."

Best of luck to you and your athletes.
You say this and I quote, " Its very difficult to actually stop a squat just above parallel, especially in a ballistic load." So why then say this is the preferred angle for power versions? The point is that many coaches have lifters train the powerc version exclusively B/C it is easier to do when loadings are below 90% then you go on to say how lifters wont bend knees, etc. When a lifter performs any power versions, the lifter, if sitting back and catching the bar properly, the idea is not to squat to full depth so a lifter is not stopping a full squat, positioning for the catch in the power version is more of a catch. My point in the video is Yoon performs 5 reps in the partial front squat, something she is not capable of doing in the full front squats. She is as strong for the power catch position as well as full. when lifters are taught correctly, these cautions you speak don't exist. you say in your summary that power snatches are appropriate at sometimes then innapropriate at others. If a lifter is taught correctly then it would be approprate to never exclude them.

Last edited by Powmongo; 10-09-2011 at 01:14 AM. Reason: typo
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2011, 03:20 PM
Joel Joel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHorton View Post
Good Article, Greg!

I think the point about distinguishing between what works for high-level athletes (who start young, and have more "natural" talent -whatever that means!) from what generally works for the "average" jane lifter is extremely important.

The way I coach a young lifter who's got a lot of athletic ability already vs how I coach the many adults in my gym is quite different as a rule. Many things that would be "obvious" or "self-evident" for a high-caliber lifter just aren't for nearly anyone else.

@PowMongo, to touch on a few of your concerns.

I DO use the power snatch extensively with my more experienced lifters as a way of reducing load while keeping their intensity high.

I also use it for rank beginners because of the flexibility issues Greg points out in the teaching progression.

But, the problem of the disconnect between a power and a full lift in most athletes is a big one. Breaking the habit of not getting under the bar ain't easy once it's ingrained.

I think it makes sense to be a bit cautious about the use of the power versions when working with beginners.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I think most lifters are either "pullers" or "divers" by nature. If they are a diver and get under the bar naturally and easily without fear, then power versions can be extremely helpful.

But, if they are a puller, they over-pull on every lift and struggle to get under the bar ... then the power versions will only make the problem worse. With these folk, I avoid power versions like the plague.

As for the Bulgarian method of starting with power versions and slowly working people down: Keep in mind that most (not all) talented weightlifters are natural divers. So, if you've got a group of kids who've been selected to join a weightlifting school and who all want to dive under anything, then getting them to use the power versions makes a ton of sense.

Adults, by contrast, tend to be over-pullers.

Just my opinion ... could be dead wrong!
Nick,

I was self-taught when I first started Oly. Because I am a masters lifter (39 y.o.), I could not do the full lifts due to lack of flexibility, so I was stuck to doing the power versions----until I hired a coach. My best power clean (DONE INCORRECTLY) was 155-lbs. My coach had me do flexibility work for months and then began training me with an empty bar on the full lifts. Under his tutelage for a year I did not do any power versions at all because, to your point, I was a PULLER and I was hesitant to catch the bar in the hole at first. I also developed the bad habit of 'riding down the bar' as a result of learning the power versions first.

To change things up, after a year of full lifts where I can catch the bar in the hole without riding down the bar, he allowed me to do power versions just for fun. One day I was doing power cleans, starting with 135-lbs.. I kept going up and up until I easily power cleaned by bodyweight of 185-lbs. (Remember that my PR in power clean was 155-lbs.) I was blown away.

Last edited by Joel; 10-10-2011 at 03:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2012, 12:33 AM
joann.jimi joann.jimi is offline
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You should focus on stretching at least half the amount that you lift weights. One of the biggest mistkakes I see is people training, training and training with out any stretching.
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  #15  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:36 AM
greco120 greco120 is offline
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Default Habituation an issue?

TL/DR Picked up a bad habit of not going full and now have to undo that.

One thing I experienced in training - inexperienced oly lifter, self - taught, was years of doing power work and not very frequently full work that then I had to actually "think" through the movement when it came time to do fulls out of necessity (heavier wts).

I had a habit to break in always (mostly) doing power work and minimal fulls.
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  #16  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:32 AM
see see is offline
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train is long trip for us ,just for fun
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:06 PM
glennpendlay glennpendlay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHorton View Post
Good Article, Greg!

I think the point about distinguishing between what works for high-level athletes (who start young, and have more "natural" talent -whatever that means!) from what generally works for the "average" jane lifter is extremely important.

The way I coach a young lifter who's got a lot of athletic ability already vs how I coach the many adults in my gym is quite different as a rule. Many things that would be "obvious" or "self-evident" for a high-caliber lifter just aren't for nearly anyone else.

@PowMongo, to touch on a few of your concerns.

I DO use the power snatch extensively with my more experienced lifters as a way of reducing load while keeping their intensity high.

I also use it for rank beginners because of the flexibility issues Greg points out in the teaching progression.

But, the problem of the disconnect between a power and a full lift in most athletes is a big one. Breaking the habit of not getting under the bar ain't easy once it's ingrained.

I think it makes sense to be a bit cautious about the use of the power versions when working with beginners.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I think most lifters are either "pullers" or "divers" by nature. If they are a diver and get under the bar naturally and easily without fear, then power versions can be extremely helpful.

But, if they are a puller, they over-pull on every lift and struggle to get under the bar ... then the power versions will only make the problem worse. With these folk, I avoid power versions like the plague.

As for the Bulgarian method of starting with power versions and slowly working people down: Keep in mind that most (not all) talented weightlifters are natural divers. So, if you've got a group of kids who've been selected to join a weightlifting school and who all want to dive under anything, then getting them to use the power versions makes a ton of sense.

Adults, by contrast, tend to be over-pullers.

Just my opinion ... could be dead wrong!
A very reasonable post.
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